We stand in awe of celebrities, but should remember we seek God in worship.
A Bag With Holes
Is Compromise Always A Bad Thing?
Does God Care What We Wear?
A Yellow Ribbon
The Sound Of Silence
Prepare To Meet God
Don't Stop Praying
How Far Away Is Jerusalem?
I met her at a conference where we were assigned to the same table. She was bubbling with excitement about her church.
“It’s changed my life and my family’s life,” she said. “We can’t wait ‘til Sundays come!”
Her enthusiasm was refreshing to hear. But then she puzzled me when she told me where she lived and where her church was. The church is some 50 miles from her home, and three counties away.
Many of us were schooled differently.
I remember the Church Covenant that was frequently displayed on the walls of churches, right next to the attendance board. The covenant was common to missionary Baptist churches in the day and is traceable to John Newton Brown who included it in his “Baptist Church Manual” in 1853. The last line reads, “We moreover engage that, when we remove from this place, we will as soon as possible unite with some other church where we can carry out the spirit of this covenant and the principles of God’s Word.”
Many modern churches don’t display the covenant, and it’s true some church members, like the lady I met, don’t practice it. The idea is that we should belong to local churches in order to be involved in their ministries in local communities.
My mother-in-law listens to gospel music produced by a Southern preacher and played on his cable channel. I watched one day and heard him read the names of new church members, many of whom were from other states. This is an interesting phenomenon. I assume they worship through cyberspace and mail offerings, but again the question is how do they participate in their church’s ministry in the local community?
I’ve seen similar situations in some of the rural churches in our state who include members on their rolls from other places. These grew up in those churches but decided not to move their memberships—this would be almost like abandoning their culture, I’ve heard it said. Sometimes these far-away folk return for the annual homecoming service, and, of course, everyone is happy to see them. But the basic question remains: how do they participate in their church’s ministry in the local community?
I know we can’t be rigid about how far is too far. I’ve known people who’ve driven across their cities to attend churches on the other side of town. And I’ve heard it said, “It’s not the church nearest; it’s the church dearest.” But the basic premise of church membership remains that not only are we called to support our churches financially, but also to help them make a difference for God in local communities.
As Jesus said, the work begins in our own “Jerusalem” (Acts 1:8).
Don't Marry A Canaanite
It used to be said that we had more Baptists than kudzu in Alabama. Now there are a few less since I bade farewell to three on the same day.
A Baptist girl whom I had baptized, along with her mother, had a Roman Catholic wedding a few days ago. She took the faith of her husband. It was a gorgeous worship place and a beautiful wedding. In the realm of “it’s a small world,” Paul and Jan came over to say “hi” after the ceremony. Jan is a friend of the groom’s mother, and I was pleasantly surprised to see them at the event. I performed their wedding in Selma, Ala. many years ago—they reminded me it had been 30 years. This formerly Baptist couple told me they were “recovering Baptists,” now attending a PCA church.
Studies show that not only are people moving to different churches within their own denominations with greater frequency today, but many are moving to and fro among various denominations. They’re moving away from the churches of their childhood, or what Episcopalians call their “cradle church.” The denominational label takes a back seat to children’s programs, youth programs, worship styles, friendships, ministries, location and other factors.
I’m not sure what to make of this other than to recognize it’s a societal change about which we have little control. The fire marshal won’t let us lock them in!
But evangelicals teach that our young people shouldn’t marry outside their faith. This doesn’t mean outside their denomination; it means marrying someone with no faith. As the Apostle Paul wrote, “Be not unequally yoked with unbelievers.” Paul’s counsel was in accord with the Old Testament exhortation to Israel not to marry Canaanites who didn’t share their faith.
Of course one of the great stories in the Old Testament is about Ruth, a Moabite, who accepted Hebrew faith and became the great-grandmother of King David. But idol-worshipping Canaanites were not normally to be in the prospect pool for Hebrew marriages.
I spent 15 years at a Christian college. One day a student told me about her friend, devout in her faith, who was dating a “callow fellow” (as Tom Jones used to sing). I expressed surprise at her choice of dating material.
“Oh, she’s missionary dating,” the student told me.
Apparently, this concept means to date a ruffian with the intention of bringing him to Christ. I’ve always had doubts about the efficacy of this. The movie, “Grease,” demonstrated that the ruffian can bring the good girl low.
As far as marriage is concerned, the old adage is true: if a child of God marries a child of the devil, she will have trouble with her father-in-law
Going To Sin City
I thought of it a few days ago when the Southern Baptist Convention determined to move their 2023 annual meeting from Charlotte to New Orleans. It reminded me about the time William got so distraught over the SBC meeting in Las Vegas—the “Sin City” of the West.
My wife and I used to attend the annual convention meetings, especially so in the 80s and 90s when the denomination was going through some turmoil. We traveled to Pittsburgh, Los Angeles, Phoenix, Atlanta and Dallas among others over the years. Churches were kind enough to let us take a few days’ vacation after these meetings so we could see some new places.
William was a deacon in his Alabama church, and he vented at my friend, his pastor, who announced he planned to go to the annual meeting that summer in Las Vegas.
“What are God’s people doing in Las Vegas?” William fumed. “That’s Sin City and we have no business going there. It’s disgusting. We’ll ruin our witness for the Lord.”
I’m not sure how the matter eventually worked out in the church. However, one reason the denomination chooses cities for meeting is to publicize Baptist work in the area. We have Baptist work in Las Vegas and throughout Nevada. In recent years convention-goers have been encouraged to join in neighborhood canvassing to invite people to local churches.
The irony is that the SBC has often chosen New Orleans for conventions—the South’s “Sin City.”
I remember attending a convention in the Superdome years ago. And I remember my wife and me walking through the French Quarter, along with other ministers, and munching beignets at Café du Monde. We saw the sights in the city and hopefully weren’t led astray from the path of righteousness. One of my mentors as a young minister was the late Bob Harrington, “Chaplain of Bourbon Street,” who operated a chapel in the quarter.
Now Baptists once again plan to convene in New Orleans.
It’s said a Christian college used to advertise “we’re 50 miles from any known sin.” Of course this can’t be. Sin is a matter of the heart and not of our environment. There are certain things Christians shouldn’t do, and Las Vegas and New Orleans are full of opportunities to do these kinds of things. But most cities are, and we can mess up wherever we live, even on the campus of a Christian college.
The challenge believers face is to follow the old descriptor, “in the world, but not of the world.”
Scripture says we’re citizens of heaven with a mission to be a holy people who serve others. We’re called to “walk the walk” no matter where we walk.
What Did You Give Up For Lent?
Though I love the classic oldies of my college days, I have, in recent months, enjoyed listening to podcasts. Everybody seems to have ambition to podcast today. There are just too many to choose from and too little drive time to hear all I wish.
I like Megyn Kelly’s podcasts. She’s a good host with a variety of interesting guests. But she does have a “potty mouth.” I suppose the broadcast rules are different on satellite radio than on cable, so she feels free to spout expletives. Interestingly, Ms. Kelly tried to give up swearing for Lent. After Easter she played a montage from past weeks in which she began to swear, and then caught herself. I must say, it was funny.
The concept of Lent isn’t one we Baptists follow.
I heard about a schoolroom in a Louisiana parish in which a teacher went around the room asking boys and girls what they planned to give up for Lent. Their answers included candy, soda, complaining about household chores, fighting with siblings and other things. There was one Baptist boy in that Catholic classroom. He said, “We’re Baptist. We don’t give up nothin’ for nobody.”
The concept of Lent is based on the scriptural practice of fasting and is accelerated in concert with Jesus’s suffering leading up to the cross. Again, my denominational tradition doesn’t say a lot about Lent or fasting. We speak more about giving and praying, which are the other two disciplines Jesus talked about in Matthew 6. His counsel was to do all three privately as an offering to God rather than desiring praise from others.
I don’t think Jesus meant we shouldn’t pray or give publicly, since people of faith often do this. The question is about motivation—do we do what we do for the praise of others or for God?
Youth in one church I served decided to participate in a World Vision 30-hour fast to raise money for hunger ministry. It began at midnight Thursday and continued to Saturday noon. Of course they challenged their pastor to participate, and I did. I was good until Friday afternoon when I began to get really hungry. The materials we read during the fast explained we were feeling what most people in the world feel every day. And we had guidance on how to pray for ourselves and others. So we gained empathy and raised money for a good cause.
Fasting doesn’t have to be about food. The idea is that we give up something of value for a period of time, and that we seek God rather than what we’d normally spend time on.
Fasting is a helpful spiritual discipline, and regrettably, often neglected.
The Offense Of The Gospel
When I was a boy preacher I heard affirmations from congregants such as, “Preacher, you really stepped on my toes today!” This remark meant I’d either raised my voice or spoke forthrightly about known sins (known sins in that day were smoking and drinking). Another phrase was “You shelled the corn today, preacher!” This comment meant essentially the same thing, though the implication was that the commenter thought I’d dressed down other people.
I know I offended many along the way. As George W. Bush famously said, “When I was young and foolish, I was young and foolish.” I chided people when the church didn’t move more quickly than I thought, and once wrote a newsletter column suggesting Christians should avoid country music due to the “beer drinking and two-timing.” Oh, the impudence of young ministers, like me, who must learn grace, and sometimes learn the discipline of silence! Plus there wasn’t an ounce of gospel in those words.
Nowadays I don’t hear from people wanting to be stepped on.
For example, a long-time Baptist deacon said to me, “I wish I could understand the Bible. It’s a book of mystery to me.” Another person said, “I pray but nothing happens. I wonder why.” And yet another said, “So many bad things happen to me. God must be angry with me.”
I think modern worshippers are beset with so much stress and so many questions that a loving pastor must try to encourage them in their faith.
But shouldn’t the gospel be offensive? Erik Raymond in an article on Christianity.com wrote, “The gospel is offensive because it unseats self from the throne of the heart and establishes God as King.” When people consider the claims of Christ over our sin and selfishness the truth can be offensive. It cuts across the grain. No question about this.
But I don’t think the scripture calls Christians to be offensive. Robert Schuller used to point out that Jesus never called a sinner “a sinner.” It was the self-righteous religious people he called sinners. He was always tender with broken people. And the Apostle Paul was clear in 1 Corinthians 10: “Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God: even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.”
Paul said he strove to be a loving vessel of God’s truth. As is often said, people must get past Christians before they can get to God. And we must be sure we’re not stumbling blocks through angry tirades or offering judgments that belong only to the Great Judge of the Universe.
Don't Act Like A Preacher
It happened twice lately, and on the same day, when I was innocently identified as a preacher.
I walked into a funeral home and the director asked, “Are you the minister?” I said I was a minister but not the minister that day for that funeral. She said, “Oh, I knew you were a preacher.”
I was puzzled a bit since I was “out of uniform” with an open collar shirt and a sport jacket.
The same day I visited a local rehabilitation facility when the nurse came in. Elliott introduced me as his pastor, and she laughingly said, “I knew you were a pastor. My father is an Episcopalian rector and both of you give off the same airs.”
I hope the “airs” were fragrant!
This reminded me of the late John Bisagno who joked his most oft-spoken reply when someone asked if he were a minister was, “No, I just haven’t been feeling well lately.”
Then he got serious and told pastors in his convention audience, “Don’t go around acting like a preacher.”
I think I understand this admonition since I’ve seen some ill-advised preacher behavior.
One pastor lamented from the pulpit how poor he was and that his wife hadn’t had a new dress in some time. I’m not sure how accurate this was, but his comments served only to embarrass the congregation.
A friend told me about another pastor we knew who told my friend he’d asked a lady in his church for money since he knew she’d received an inheritance.
“And she wrote me a check,” he proudly told my friend.
And legions of pastors have asked for ministerial discounts at local businesses.
An occupational hazard for ministers is we may feel entitled since most people treat us kindly and defer to us. And we can mix our personal opinion with scripture and our congregants think we speak from Mt. Sinai. Furthermore, because we have flexibility of schedule, we’re either the hardest working or the least engaged in the workforce.
Surely there’s a better way.
If we’re struggling financially, we ought to have a private “checkbook to checkbook” talk with the finance team rather than broadcasting this from the sacred desk. If we conjecture, we ought to declare as the Apostle Paul did, “I say this, and not of the Lord.” If people give us things, we ought to be gracious in receiving them, but never demand or expect favors.
An agent told me once that ministers are pretty good insurance risks since we only have two sins: we work too hard and we eat too much! True enough. Most pastors are committed servants of God.
We just shouldn’t go around acting like a preacher.
Speak The Speech Plainly, I Pray THEE
My ten-year old grandson asked me to join in an Easter egg hunt.
“I’ll versus you,” he said.
I was puzzled until my daughter explained this means “challenge.”
“It’s slang,” his 12-year old brother added.
He did “versus” me, and miraculously, he won, and claimed the five dollar prize!
Every generation has slang, defined as a shorthand understood by that generation. My generation used words like “groovy,” “dweeb” and “take a chill pill.” More recently we’ve heard words like “epic fail,” “skrilla,” “bling” and “diss.” And a COVID vaccine shot is now a “Fauci ouchie.”
Closely akin to slang is jargon, the shorthand language of vocation. Thus there’s medical jargon, military jargon, computer jargon and theological jargon. I’ve been with families after surgeries when the doctor explained the outcome. And I’ve heard them say, “Doc, can you say that again? I’m afraid I don’t understand what you said.”
I think the worst offenders are our brave men and women in uniform. Their code words leave the rest of us in befuddlement. Who knows what “ bivouac at 1835 hours” means?
Of course, religious leaders have our own slang. A pastor might say, “Today I want to deliver an expository discourse on eschatology,” or “I will speak about the hypostatic union of Christ.” And we’ve heard enough about “tracking” and “unpacking” to last a lifetime.
Jargon and slang are appropriate if the audience is one’s age group or workmates, but not appropriate for a general audience for which they convey no meaning.
Furthermore, Bruce Barton in “The Man Nobody Knows” argued that great language is “marvelously simple.” He gave three examples:
Our Father which art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name.
The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
Four score and seven years ago . . .
Barton further noted, “Not a single three-syllable word; hardly any two-syllable words. All the greatest things in human life are one-syllable things—love, joy, hope, home, child, wife, trust, faith, God—and the great pieces of writing, generally speaking, use the small word in place of the large if meaning permits.”
The Apostle Paul agreed, I think, when he explained the preeminence of a clear gospel word over an ecstatic utterance. “I’d rather speak five words clearly understood than ten thousand words in a tongue,” he wrote (1 Corinthians 14:19). Thus it’s 2,000 times better to speak a clear word in worship than a word liable to be misunderstood.
Slang and jargon and technical words have their place, but when someone explains the love of God for us all, and his wonderful offer of mercy and forgiveness, we must be sure our words are clear and clearly understood by those who hear.
Why Do We Do What We Do?
It was unique in the history of telephone calls. She asked the ministry assistant if she could talk with the pastor and we connected.
“I won’t give my name,” she said, so I conversed with this unknown person for some time.
She explained she was married to an area pastor, and her husband thought he and she ought to be blameless in every regard. No argument from me. Then she further explained how her church received offerings.
“At the end of the service, a deacon reads the envelopes or checks and tells how much everybody gave,” she said. “My husband gives more than we can afford because he knows we have to be exemplary. What should I do?”
Well, only one of many times I filibustered while trying to think of a rational response. Granted, it was unusual to talk with anyone who felt they gave too much to the Lord’s work. In fact, I’d never heard this before. Nor had I heard of a church following this procedure. I thought this would happen in our church only once!
Jesus had much to say about religious people who “practiced their piety before men” (Matthew 6). He spoke of three spiritual pursuits. The first is “alms,” or as we would say, charitable giving. This is the origin of the famous saying, “Let not your right hand know what the left is doing.” The point is we give to God’s glory, not for our own.
Then Jesus spoke of public prayers and fasting. Both praying and fasting are good but should be done to draw us closer to God, not to win praise from others.
Back to the caller, I told her that I didn’t see any value in the way her church announced individual gifts, and I’d recommend she have a serious talk with her husband about budgeting.
In another place we began a building campaign. Our consultant explained that I, the pastor, was expected to announce our over-and-above monthly pledge to encourage others. I thought of this clear teaching of Jesus and struggled with what to do. I ended up telling the congregation that we would give the equivalent of what we’d pay for lunch every day. I guess it worked. The pledges came in and the building has been used for many years, though it could be argued I violated scripture in telling others about money and fasting!
The question we must ask in every decision of life is why do we do what we do? If we do it to gain the praise of others, we do it wrongly. The best course is to try to please God first of all and to do so with thankful hearts.
The Witness Of Watergate
The scandal rocked the nation for two years. It was the origin of the “gate” reference to most every other scandal and the genesis of my interest in presidential history.
Intruders entered the Democratic National Committee headquarters in Washington’s Watergate Hotel on June 17, 1972. Investigators linked the burglars to the president’s reelection committee. President Nixon, the nation’s chief law enforcement official, was complicit in a cover-up of the crime. Actually, according to a new book on the scandal, the House Judiciary Committee cited 36 specific acts of obstructing justice.
Nixon’s downfall largely came about due to the testimony of Alexander Butterfield, former White House advisor, in response to questioning by attorney Fred Thompson, later to become a Hollywood actor and U.S. senator. Garrett M. Graff in “Watergate—A New History,” called it “Butterfield’s bombshell”—the revelation the president had a secret White House taping system. As someone noted, “Nixon bugged himself.”
The U.S. Supreme Court affirmed Special Prosecutor Leon Jaworski’s request for selected tapes, and the June 23 tape was the “smoking gun” showing the president’s crime.
Graff’s book, a challenge at 793 pages, is filled with new information and is a reminder of what the nation faced in those days.
I’ve admired President Nixon. He was a leader gifted in so many ways. I never met him but did pay respects at his gravesite a few years ago. It was late afternoon and the setting sun glared in my camera lens, so the kind security officer allowed me to return the next morning on the way out of town to take a better picture.
I’ve always thought we can learn spiritual lessons from Watergate.
It’s hypocrisy when we declare one thing and live another. Nixon was hypocritical since his job was to enforce the laws of the nation. Christians are often accused of hypocrisy. The only valid response is to acknowledge it’s true. None of us lives up to our ideals, though we try. Browning wrote, “Ah, a man’s reach should exceed his grasp, or what’s a heaven for?” Sincere believers never insist they’ve arrived; instead we admit we’re on a continuing life journey of growth in holiness.
A second lesson we glean from Watergate is that we’re all bugged! Jesus said, “But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment” (Matthew 12:36).
Words are powerful tools. They can be used to encourage and bless others, or they can be used to stir strife and division among others. What a sobering reminder that God hears our words, and we will stand before him one day to give account of every word and every deed.
On Turning The Other Cheek
It was the slap heard ‘round the world when actor Will Smith assaulted comedian Chris Rock at the 94th Academy Awards. The move was so unexpected that many thought it part of the comedy routine. But it soon became apparent the act was more spontaneous, especially after Smith returned to his seat spewing profanities.
At the time of this writing the Academy is looking into disciplinary action against Smith.
The incident reminded me the first time I can remember being threatened with assault. His name was Pete--the neighborhood bully. He accosted me one day when my sister and I walked home from grammar school. He called me names and said the next time he found me on the streets he was going to beat me up. Pete was older and in a higher grade than me. What I took to be his sister was with him acquiescing to his bullying. I was afraid.
This incident brought a serious talk with my older brother.
He told me you can’t let people push you around like this. I remember he quoted Franklin Roosevelt who said the only thing we had to fear was fear itself. I think this may’ve been the seminal moment of my later love for presidential history!
I don’t remember seeing Pete again. We moved to another community shortly thereafter when the state of Alabama bought neighborhood property to build an interstate. But I’ve thought about how I’d like to meet Pete again. I viewed enough “Walker Texas Ranger” that I think I could perform a spinning back kick!
But isn’t a Christian supposed to “turn the other cheek”? Yes, Jesus’s words are clear. His point is about how we treat those who do evil to us. Rather than responding in kind, we do good, say good and pray. We return good for evil rather than perpetuating evil, we bless them with healing words and we pray for them. This is the high standard he gave.
But on the other hand, we’ve learned in recent years about boundaries. We cannot let evil people continue to hurt others in person or in social media. Abusers have to be stopped, and those who disrupt the lives of their families though addictions must be forced to face sobering reality.
The Apostle Paul was about to be beaten when he told the Roman soldiers they couldn’t do this since he had citizenship in the empire (Acts 22: 25). He very appropriately enforced boundaries to protect himself in that instance.
It’s never appropriate for bullies to take advantage of the defenseless. People of good will must stand with the weak, protect them and declare to the bullies that this conduct won’t be tolerated.
On Being Admonished
It was a striking comment in a book we used in midweek Bible study. The chapter was about growing in relationships, and the writer said sometimes we had to “wound” others. He cited Proverbs 27:6: “The wounds of a friend are faithful . . . .”
I stated I didn’t feel comfortable with this concept. Another attendee suggested a better word is “admonish,” which is an activity the Apostle Paul encouraged to do (Romans 15:14).
Later a deacon came to me with a pointed question. He asked if I’d ever been admonished.
“Yes, of course,” I replied.
“What did you do?” he asked.
I told him that if the admonishment was ill-advised, I overlooked it. But if it was on target I tried to change my attitude and behavior.
And I thought of two examples.
A church leader waited for me one Monday morning. He was upset that I’d asked my associate to preside the night before at the concluding service of a Bible conference. I explained that my wife was ill and I needed to sit with our two small children, so I asked my associate to host in my place. The leader told me that I was the pastor and I always needed to preside at church events.
In my heart I didn’t agree with his assessment since I believe in sharing responsibilities. I was there, the service went well and the church was encouraged. But I listened and thanked him for his thoughts.
Years later I remain puzzled why this was such an issue. I was admonished about something inconsequential.
But I remembered another time a church leader came to announce a family who had begun to worship with us was distraught at something I’d said the Sunday previous. He prodded me a bit as to what they told him they heard. I shared a funny (and true) story about a lady who did something crazy in a previous church. I described her as “a few fries short of a Happy Meal.”
The leader explained this family had a grandchild with some brain injuries and who’d had multiple surgeries, and apparently, they thought I was insensitive to this. I didn’t know about their grandchild and certainly wasn’t trying to belittle anyone with a medical condition.
I called the family immediately to schedule a visit, but they didn’t take my calls. So I showed up anyway. I apologized profusely and learned more about their grandchild. I followed up with a heart-felt note. They later joined our church. It was an admonishment I needed to hear.
Admonishment is a Christian practice that must be carefully considered before discarding or heeding. We need God’s wisdom in deciding which to do.
No Regrets?
A pastor told of a collection of shirts he acquired from a church member. They were all short-sleeved for summer wear, and most fairly new. He explained the donor was a new Christian and with a new perspective saw the awful tattoos emblazoned on his arms.
“Now that I’m a Christian I will wear long-sleeved shirts to cover these tattoos,” he told his pastor. “I’d not really cared about them before, but now I don’t want to offend the Lord or anyone else with them.”
I’ve seen tattoos over the years that were lewd, but many today are more subdued portraying butterflies, bunny rabbits and rainbows. One-third of Americans under 30 have at least one tattoo. The most often used tattooed phrase is “no regrets,” but this is untrue since three of four who get tattoos eventually regret doing so! Accordingly, the tattoo removal business is booming in our country. Many with second thoughts do as this man did and cover them with clothing.
According to Daniel Pink, “no regrets” is a lie anyway.
Pink fostered the American Regret Project through which he surveyed 15,000 people in over 100 countries. He asked, “How often do you look back on your life and wish you had done things differently?” Eighty-two percent said regret is at least an occasional part of their lives. Two percent reported feeling regret "all the time," and only one percent said they never felt regret.
Most of us live with regret. We had opportunity to earn a degree to advance our career, but didn’t, or we spoke cruel words in haste, or we triggered brokenness in our family or we made a poor moral choice hurting ourselves and others.
In “The Power of Regret,” Pink argued regret is an ally for positive change and that it can motivate us to do better and to be better.
“We can convert our regret into fuel for progress,” he wrote.
Alfred Nobel awoke to read his obituary in a morning newspaper. The reporter confused the death of Nobel's brother, Ludwig, and reported that “the merchant of death is dead.” Alfred Nobel was an inventor and a chemist. His best-known invention was dynamite, the most powerful explosive force in its day. His invention made him wealthy, but also earned him the aforementioned title since dynamite became a weapon of warfare.
Eight years later Alfred Nobel died, but he left his fortune to fund a series of cash awards for those who made society better. Today we remember him not as a merchant of death but as the founder of the Nobel Peace Prizes.
Nobel rewrote his obituary. Regret fueled positive change in his life, and it can in ours as well.